00:04.14 greybeards And now it's my pleasure to introduce Renee Carlyle staff product manager at net backup veritass so Renee why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself and what veritas is doing to protect Kubernetes data. 00:18.81 Renee Carlisle Sureray I've been with ah veritas for about 11 years now before that I was a customer working a lot with our virtualization technologies as part of that I just started to see about three years ago this Kubernetes technology and platform really start to pick up and. Just realized there was a trend there that was going to start accelerating fast so it became a passion project of mine and really started to drive the the strategy of nut backup with Kubernetes so we started about. 00:40.49 greybeards Good for you. 00:49.81 Renee Carlisle 2 two and a half years ago we just took an initial step of containerizing our client just to start having those conversations with customers analyst going to kubecon seeing where this was going and it quickly became apparent that this was going to be the next big thing if you will this is going to be something very critical to our customers right. 01:03.98 greybeards Um, yeah, yeah. 01:09.80 Renee Carlisle So um, about a year ago. We released our first integrative native built from the ground up data center protection for Kubernetes really wanted to focus 2 things that we saw we were struggling with with customers or that they were telling us was a struggle as they were. 01:17.72 greybeards Really. 01:28.30 Renee Carlisle Trying to figure this out and and go into an enterprise-ready application. They wanted something that was Kubernetes native we realized that transition you know back with the virtualization days. You couldn't back up vms the same way you backed up physical machines different animal. 01:34.68 greybeards And. 01:42.92 greybeards All right. 01:47.80 Renee Carlisle We saw the same thing with Kubernetes Kubernetes is so different from typical vms. We needed a new way to protect those. It needed to be native but we didn't want to lose that framework that we had for our other applications. All the advanced capabilities. We had the the ease of use for the backup badmins to. 02:02.97 greybeards Right? right? And right right? right? right. 02:06.26 Renee Carlisle Wrap their minds around this new technology so you know so we had to build this from the ground up but we had to do it in a native kubernetes way so we launched our first integration about eight months ago and then just this week we launched our second integration to take it. 02:14.51 greybeards Huh. 02:24.58 Renee Carlisle To the next level to overcome some shortcoms shortcomings that we saw within native Kubernetes technology the biggest one of that is Kubernetes doesn't have a native data mover and we needed to be able to offer that I mean ransonware is already starting to hit Kubernetes. 02:36.19 greybeards Yeah, and f. 02:42.30 greybeards Um, really. 02:44.11 Renee Carlisle Data protection is becoming increasingly important for all of our customers. The industry we wanted to be able to it. You know it was a couple of years ago when we first started this journey most um yeah for kubernetes with customers. 02:47.96 greybeards Was it ever not important I mean how can data protection not be important to customers ah Kubernetes. Okay. 03:02.81 Renee Carlisle Most of my conversations with customers back then was hey this thing's ephemeral. Do we even need to protect it. You know and that was that was kind of the early journey of Kubernetes I rarely if ever have that conversation anymore. 03:06.00 greybeards yeah right yeah and right yeah pvc persistent viomes are are becoming the the rigor for for Kubernetes containers and stuff like that. 03:17.11 Renee Carlisle As people are moving to production persistent storage is you know more important. It's not a. 03:28.80 Renee Carlisle Absolutely chirp. 03:29.97 greybeards Let's start getting into this stuff so you you mentioned native at least 4 times here. So what is kubernetes native the client I understand because you have to go in and do scanning and stuff like that. But the the backup server is running on Kubernetes as containers. 03:45.16 Renee Carlisle We do that as well. That wasn't what I was referring to but we do have our infrastructure that can run on containers as well. But what I was mainly referring to are things like you can't just stick a net backup client this you know this big Monolithlithic thing. Put it in the infrastructure and say hey we have a solution right? So we had to write something that was native to Kubernetes so actually even our programmers even picked up native Kubernetes programming languages to write it. But we have a custom operator that sets inside of Kubernetes. 04:15.70 greybeards Men. 04:20.10 Renee Carlisle Our data Mover is an elastic data Mover specifically designed for Cloud environments. So we'll scale up scale down as needed to fit in that kind of environment. Yeah, everything goes through the Api server for communication. It was really and we also the. 04:28.34 greybeards Containerized Effectively? Yeah, yeah, yeah, right right. 04:37.65 Renee Carlisle The big flip for data protection I think is with virtual machines even with standalone clients you protect a client or you protect a vm there's this one for 1 relationship. That's not the same with Kubernetes. There can be you know 50 different components that make up an application for Kubernetes right. 04:45.89 greybeards Here. 04:53.79 greybeards Pods containers all other stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 04:57.60 Renee Carlisle Custom resources pvs pvcs so it was really taking veritas's Dna of understanding complicated multipart applications. How to associate all of them protect them as a single entity recover them as a single entity. 05:09.20 greybeards Right? right? So so you you're saying you can actually protect. Let's say I I deploy ah a Kubernetes application across you know 4 or 5 pods a cluster with. 05:13.70 Renee Carlisle Um, so there was a lot of things that we had to look at differently. 05:27.57 greybeards Persistent volumes, etc, Etc. You can not only protect the data but protect the application itself. 05:32.83 Renee Carlisle Absolutely And so what we do is we take the entire application everything that makes up at its basic form everything that makes up a name space. All the persistent volumes the claims The metadata we can protect it all as an entity customers can even yeah. 05:42.50 greybeards Yeah, and and and yeah Yamo Files All that junk. Yeah. 05:51.19 Renee Carlisle They can tweak that a little bit if they want to so within include or exclude or you know custom labels. They can even say a name space isn't exactly right for us. We want to tweak it We let them do that and then we protect it all and then not only can we recover it all back to the same environment we can recover it to a different cluster. 06:04.73 greybeards M. 06:09.86 Renee Carlisle That cluster can be in a different data center. It can even be a different distribution so that was the other big thing about Kubernetes is the portability nature. Yeah, we didn't want to get away in the get in the way of the portability. Yep. 06:14.97 greybeards Different distribution like like a KS versus EKS or gke and whatever and and maybe even openshift kind of thing. What. 06:27.27 Renee Carlisle Absolutely it was the first of its kind for for net backup. We've always been heterogeneous I wanted to take it to the next level. So now if a customer wants to back up and say openshift and recover it into gke. They have the full freedom to do that and. 06:33.82 greybeards Knows. 06:41.12 greybeards And and and the backup storage is your standard net Backup backup storage anything anywhere. Any place. 06:44.29 Renee Carlisle So any distribution to any distribution. 06:45.50 kltownsend Oh. 06:50.90 Renee Carlisle It is yeah sure. 06:53.83 kltownsend So I I have a ton of questions I think the first question is well before a question comment kind of like um I'm surprised Ray is as surprised that you know you can take something from. 06:55.99 greybeards Good. 07:12.20 kltownsend A set of Kubernetes containers from openshift shift and restore them into something like a k or whatever I think that was the promise of Kubernetes. 07:19.35 greybeards I think it's the promise of k yes, it is the promise of Kubernetes but openshift in Kubernetes Openshift is a superset of Kubernetes and and and we have this problem with you know virtualization to some extent. We have this problem with other solutions. And when you start playing with a superset. Ah you start taking advantage of those functionality if you're an open shift customer and you're and you're you're playing the pure Kubernetes solution. Yeah fine. But now you're taking open shift applications and moving them to to to Google cloud it's it's it's a little. 07:53.70 kltownsend So when are are you saying that the ah that net backup solves that logic problem from 1 platform to another because that will be surprising. 07:56.30 greybeards Different game. 08:05.31 greybeards Renee. 08:05.98 Renee Carlisle Yeah, we take all the data so we can take it within the constraint of a name space. So every all the metadata and everything that makes up that namespace we'll grab all that and the persistent volume in the storage as long as the biggest challenge has always been the storage as long as the storage type is the same. So block to block. You can't go block to files. But as long as we have some consistency in the type of storage we can take and recover it from 1 platform to another platform or 1 distribution to another distribution. 08:32.84 kltownsend So you guys are taking there so you guys are taking a pure storage perspective of it. So if the application needs logic change to ah to take advantage of ah open shipped environment versus an ak or a eks or a antholton. Environment. You have to account for that in the data in the app migration itself. So if if there's a custom call or process or operator that ah that Google has that aws doesn't have that openshift has you have to account for that in the movement of the data. 09:08.70 Renee Carlisle Well, we'll grab all the metadata associated with the name space itself so we'll recover right right. 09:10.43 kltownsend And app. 09:13.76 kltownsend M. 09:14.16 greybeards Which is pure Kubernetes wherever wherever it runs right? But if the application uses an api. Let's say that's openshift specific and it and you moving over to Google can you know Google Gke or something like that. It's not going to work. 09:20.28 kltownsend Ruck. 09:31.69 Renee Carlisle Yeah, they would probably correct. Yeah. 09:31.91 kltownsend So yeah, so let's talk about a practical challenge as we take kind of these traditional data protection ideas and concepts that are fundamental to it operations and combine them with. 09:32.80 greybeards It has to change the Api. 09:50.64 kltownsend This prevalence of cicd pipelines configuration management to state management of applications and we revert back from 1 version of the app to or data or in this case app because now we're not just talking about the data. We're talking about that. App itself. How do we do like version control is an integration with something like a net backup for containers. 10:14.96 greybeards So if you were to take let's say an application and and you wanted to update it. You're in the process of updating and the backup started to take place and then you decide later ops I Don't think we want to do that. We want to revert So what happens to that backup to some extent. Yeah because we. 10:28.39 kltownsend Or we just say we want to revert back to 2 versions previous you know and we choose and instead of using our CiCd process our data and this happens practically where our data and app are's so tightly coupled that it's almost impossible. 10:34.67 greybeards Didn't realize we were making a big mistake or. 10:41.36 greybeards A. 10:45.72 kltownsend To Revert back without reverting back. The data that is a common challenge and and impediment to move into containers. How do you guys help with that with that operations issue. 10:49.71 greybeards Um. 10:50.37 Renee Carlisle Yeah I think just being able to provide customers with a lot of the flexibility there. So when we grab all the data that makes up that application and you can keep as many copies of that as you want and like said. You can store that we can either roll back from a quick snapshot or they can store that off to some kind of external storage to further protect from Ransomware and take advantage of deduplications and all the optimizations. But when they go to do the recovery. They can tell exactly what was in that backup image. Down to here's all the metadata we grabbed and here is the version of every single one of those components So before they come back or need to pull something back if they're in that kind of state. They know exactly what those components are what versions they are if they decide that there's. Some component.. That's not the right version. They need to pull need to pull back. They can do more of a granular recovery and say I don't want that component or I just want this component and be able to do more of ah a precise recovery if they get into those kind of scenarios. 11:59.97 greybeards So So I guess what you're saying is is if you were reverting the application and it wasn't dependent on changing the data then there was no Problem. You could all do it through Cicd kinds of things. But if you had if you're reverting the the application and it did require. Ah, you know a different format of the data. Let's say then they would have to go back through their backup list and say okay this is the last backup we have of the data in that format and that's what we need to recover from so it would be less of a let's call it automated reversion than it than something that operations would have to get involved in. And selecting that stuff is that how it play out. 12:39.29 Renee Carlisle Right? right? or maybe they just want to recreate the application. They just need their data back so they can recover just the persistent volumes to that new application so they can get just the data and they can do that where we we just want the data. We don't even want the persistent volume claims. We don't want anything else. 12:46.40 greybeards Um, if they want granularity wise. Yeah. 12:58.30 greybeards I mean. 12:58.63 Renee Carlisle Just want to recover our data back to this new application that's on a new version. They can do that as well. So lots of flexibility for the granularity and and complexities to solve for different use cases. 13:08.92 greybeards Kind of it's almost like it. 13:09.72 kltownsend Yeah I will I will love to talk to a user to talk through how they then get back into their main tree and CICd process. You know I've reverted back outside of my system kind of my configuration and Cicd chain I've reverted the system. That is a accepted change kind of the governance around that and then we kind of pick up day two and we have our cicd process without it breaking I Love to see how customers are solving that practical problems problem. Yes, we recovered from Ransomware We're back up and running. 13:37.37 Renee Carlisle Kind see from. 13:48.40 kltownsend But now we're continuing our development chain with this kind of gap in in history between the systems of record which is my you know Net backup is one system a record of versioning and then I don't this is where I'm getting to the the limit of my knowledge of cicd. 14:03.14 greybeards That. 14:06.16 kltownsend But Jenkins or an ansible whatever my tool is I'm using for cicd and tracking ah ah versioning et cetera. It just seems like that's a really interesting problem. 14:14.81 greybeards So so the the net backup curve I'm not even sure what the terminologyies is net back up Kubernetes is that what you'd call it I mean what's ah is there a buzzword for this is there just net backup. 14:26.73 Renee Carlisle Um, it's just net backup in Kubernetes is a platform that we protect we like to tell people they're charting a better course with with net backups. Ah. 14:30.61 greybeards So yeah, okay, okay, and so you you fully support api solutions I mean so you're you're all all in on anything you can do over. Let's say an council you can do via Apis. 14:46.99 Renee Carlisle Absolutely everything is restful api enabled that comes out and it also whether you're through r ui or through restful Apis we have role-based access control for for the self-service. So. 14:58.16 greybeards Security. Yeah yeah. 15:01.96 Renee Carlisle Our users can get down to either a name spacece level as the smallest granularity of we only want this user to have access to just this namespace and here's what we're going to allow them to do or they can give them a group of names spaces. Maybe they have you know a cluster of things that they are responsible for. 15:08.82 greybeards Oh that's nice. 15:16.16 greybeards So so Keith can't control my namespace and I can't control Keith's namespace and that's our at this level of granularity and stuff like that. But if it's if it's all Api driven then it's possible that the automation could take advantage of that go in look at look at let's say the directory. 15:21.57 Renee Carlisle Correct. Correct. Yeah. 15:35.54 greybeards Identify the backups that have the proper versions of the application slash data and recover those. 15:41.82 Renee Carlisle Absolutely. 15:42.12 kltownsend Yeah I think what I would do sounds like it's capable based on this conversation is just say what I wouldn't make the call from that backup directly I wouldn't say oh my data's kind of how we do in the Vm world which oh I had a ah breach I need to break revert back and I just go to the net backup console. Do. 15:58.13 greybeards Ah. 16:02.90 kltownsend Select my my target my source target and then version and hit restore what I would probably do is have that integrated into my cicd pipeline and say that oh I need to revert back to a previous version of the app and this is just you know I continue that Pipeline logic. To say that that this this recovery is the next version of my app and that's how that's how I think I would do version control. 16:24.00 greybeards Yeah man man. Yeah. 16:27.85 Renee Carlisle Absolutely Keith and it and we really it depends on some of our customers environments as who in the organization is responsible for the recovery and what kind of recovery so the beauty of having the apis fully enabled can tie into cicd pipelines. All backups can be driven just by a label devops teams don't have to ever touch or know about net backup in order to be able to provide protection and do recovery It can be all scripted. They can throw a label on whatever they want to protect and they're done life is good, but. 16:53.43 greybeards Oh. 17:03.59 Renee Carlisle We know that in the enterprise world. Especially you know in ransomware auditing security having a centralized process and let's face that I've spent more time educating backup admins on what Kubernetes is than anything else. It can be complicated for them so being able to have that in. 17:13.96 greybeards Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 17:21.48 Renee Carlisle Their view within their processes not have to learn another tool say oh I can just create a gold protection plan and now all my Kubernetes namespaces are just going to automatically be protected and I don't have to worry about that it it makes it easier for them as well. So we really I kind of like to. 17:32.62 greybeards Right? right. 17:40.26 Renee Carlisle Describe it as two sides of Onecoins we wanted to be really native for the kubernetes admin so they could use their own processes Cs Ed pipelines labels things they know not interfere with their kubernetes environment but we needed to give that same level to the Net Backup admin. 17:48.95 greybeards Um, and love. Yeah yeah. 17:57.89 Renee Carlisle They didn't have to learn new tools processes. They could take all the advanced technology and apply it and be comfortable in their space so being able to achieve both of those within 1 product was my goal and we were able to achieve that. In fact, um, a lot of the analyst reports on this and one of the surveys we did it said. 18:07.75 greybeards It is challenging. Yeah. 18:17.80 Renee Carlisle A lot of people would love to have one solution to be able to protect their enterprise space including Kubernetes most people don't know it's out there. So that's one of the things we're trying to tell people is it is out there. We've designed it that way. 18:24.10 greybeards Ah, yeah, right, right. 18:29.33 kltownsend So let's talk a little bit about that nuance because I really love what you folks have been able to do and one of the biggest challenges I see is that gap. So unless you have something like a platform group and you know the platform group has has morphed over the past few years to mean something very different when with across every organization but let's generically say this group that writes the the policies and translates the the backup the net back the traditional net backup admin speak into. Developers speak and create these profiles if you don't have that it's a lot of muck like that missing that gap and backup folks even with the transition to vms. You know we we had this this notion of I can there's an app. And this app is connected to a number of vms and if I need to restore this app then these underlying vms will be restored to your point Kubernetes isn't that straightforward always or that simple I can have a micro a shared microservice or say credit card processing this. Shared across 5 different apps and restoring that one micro process may break another set of apps. So the backup admin or backup process has to have that intelligence how has that education process been going. 19:58.86 greybeards And before we go down a path. Yeah, do you think that? that's that there's a single microservice credit card processing that's operating in this pod across 5 different applications or is it more likely that there are 5 instances of this credit card service running and across multiple pods. 20:17.17 kltownsend So that's a fair question Ray and I think it depends on organization if there's a if there's a if there is a app team or platform team responsible for this infrastructure credit card processing then it's. 20:18.10 greybeards For each at 1 pod for each application kind of thing really. 20:30.78 greybeards Yeah. 20:35.46 kltownsend 1 version if it's hey here's here's the credit card processing container or package pull it down for your app. It all depends on just how it's managed. 20:39.63 greybeards Right. 20:45.82 Renee Carlisle I think it's also changing. That's one of the things I'm trying to really keep an eye on with our customers is Kubernetes is being adopted so more rapidly than any platform I've ever seen as a result, there's still some. Ah. 20:57.50 greybeards Are you listening Keith are you listening Keith I'm sorry, go ahead. 21:00.98 kltownsend So we talked a little bit about this before we hit record is that my argument is that kubernetes and what I've seen in my audience. They love the content and they absorb it more than any other stuff but the other stuff just isn't going away not at the same rate you know. 21:02.30 Renee Carlisle Thought the. 21:20.68 kltownsend Vm's kind of ah cannibalized containers I don't see that happening yet for Kubernetes and monolithic applications. We're not cannibalizing the kubernetes is just growing at an incredible pace. 21:22.18 greybeards Are bare metal right? vms. Yeah. 21:27.27 Renee Carlisle Yeah, yeah. 21:33.60 Renee Carlisle Right? And I didn't say those were mutually exclusive right? The the adoption of Kubernetes is faster than any trend I've ever seen. But you're right, it doesn't necessarily mean that it can be a tough transition too. So it doesn't mean that all the traditional applications are going away either. It's just moving fast and they're growing fast and customers are adopting it very rapidly, especially as they're moving towards the cloud and we know the pandemic didn't help people working from home. They're needing to adopt. Um, new platforms to absorb that. So I think there's just a lot of things in the world today that has caused kubernetes to explode faster than anything I've seen before transition from this application into Kubernetes that's a different story. That's a harder shift. 22:22.56 greybeards M. 22:26.17 Renee Carlisle But the explosion of Kubernetes is is just rapid. So. 22:29.22 greybeards So what Keith is key. 22:30.47 kltownsend I Guess that goes back to the original question before we can kind of get off of the tangent about adoption is how the a traditional net backup admin handling this this change of it's a paradigm shift because they still have the monolithic applications. They have to support and they have this. Thing that's become incredibly important. 22:50.86 Renee Carlisle Right? I was thanks Keith I forgot where we were going with that as we went down that track. Yeah, and and that is I think one of the things we've seen as far as customers struggle. It's becoming more adopted in production. They're having to deal with this. They don't necessarily. Some of the backup admins are are just drinking from the fire hose. So I think that's where us being able to provide an ability for them to just bring it into their known framework. They don't have to. Have as much education. They don't have to be experts in kubernetes to now protect it. They can go into their net backup you I create the same protection plans that they've always created where you've got somebody. They don't even really have to know that it's. 23:36.76 greybeards For something called a namespace kind of thing. Yeah, yeah. 23:45.67 Renee Carlisle Necessarily this namespace they can just set up here's my parameters I want to be able to do a gold silver bronze I want to be able to back something up a snapshot and and then I want to store it into optimize storage for six months and this is my framework. Any new kubernetes namespace that comes up just automatically starts populating into these frameworks that I've created and now I have this autonomous native protection I never have to touch it again. I don't have to know that my devops teams are spinning up new namespaces. They just are automatically protected. It's one of those advanced capabilities we provide for other workloads. It was bringing it into the net back a framework that allows us to move faster on applying those concepts to Kubernetes as just another platform workload for us. 24:30.51 greybeards So so so a Dev team would say I'm I'm creating this namespace or this application and and in my yaml file I would say I want data protection equals Silver or something like that for this application is that how would play out and all of a sudden because Silver is. 24:44.25 Renee Carlisle Correct I could just throw a label. So. 24:47.97 greybeards Silver is there. It's tagged and and it's it's done. Whatever the silver protection scheme is. 24:51.60 Renee Carlisle Absolutely and then when that next when this the silver protection plan kicks off next. It goes out and does a discovery and says tell me anything that's silver and all those workloads that are tagged with that automatically get protected based on the framework that. People responsible for how much was our Attention. You know? what's our offsite.. What's our you know how long do we have to keep the data they can define those frameworks because that's typically a company standard that they're responsible for so they just define that framework and then anything that shows up just automatically gets protected. 25:11.65 greybeards Right? right. 25:19.13 greybeards Yeah, yeah. 25:26.90 kltownsend So from let's take this to like a Dr process when if I'm designing Br in a traditional environment I typically design that Vr based on the number of vms and the amount of data I can't do that in. 25:27.13 Renee Carlisle Based on that framework. 25:44.98 kltownsend Kubernetes where I hear what I would do in this environment and say okay how much gold versus silver versus platinum policy do I have and do I have the equivalent capacity in Dr to recover. This much gold this much silver this much platinum is that their approach or a approach. 26:06.52 Renee Carlisle It it could be I haven't seen that as much as customers saying these are my critical applications so I need to make sure that I could recover them rapidly with a snapshot and then I have some retention that I'm responsible I don't want to keep that on any kind of primary storage I'm going to put that off to optimize storage. And I'm going to keep that for a year or two years so that I know I can recover from that. 26:26.65 greybeards Yeah, but yeah, but the but the fact that you're capable of running the the application in any Kubernetes environment must lend credence to you know disaster recovery. So if I've got. I've got the infrastructure to run ah a Kubernetes environment whether it's in the cloud or on-prem or something like that and I have access to this secondary storage does these backups exist on then I can instantiate it I can recover it I can bring that application and run it in that environment I guess. 26:53.91 Renee Carlisle Correct. 26:55.31 kltownsend Yeah, and I guess my my challenge is I think through like practical challenges from what I've seen in ah in Dr Environments even where we did this hybrid recovery where we could recover into the cloud. There's a couple of costs and limiting factors that we never. Consider until we have a Dr. event or test one of them which is super important in this conversation is cost so capacity may not be an issue ah is there enough compute or storage on the target platform ah is simply cannot afford to run it so have I oversubscribed. 27:23.75 greybeards All right right. 27:32.59 kltownsend In traditional environments I can oversubscribe the amount of compute and and still run and stay within my cost parameters. But in this new environment I can not I can oversubscribe cost and now I'm in trouble in a event of. Great Keith you were able to recover but it it wasn't the the you know as they say the the juice wasn't worth the squeeze. 27:53.72 greybeards If it's a true disaster and does costs really matter as much and number 1 number 2 those costs that you had for the for the non kubernetes environment because you had the infrastructure you understand its constraints. You understand what it costs I I would say you could do sampling similar from a Kubernetes perspective. 27:54.72 Renee Carlisle Yeah, and so god. 28:12.20 Renee Carlisle Yeah, and Keith for data. Yeah for data protection it ah it could be slightly different as well because we're talking about typically our gold silver prowns for the data protection side. Not the orchestrated recovery side would be hey I need to keep. 28:12.31 kltownsend Okay. 28:13.51 greybeards Renee let Rene talk. 28:27.83 Renee Carlisle So many snapshots I need to keep so many backup images I need to keep those right? What's the retention. Let's optimize the storage. Let's put that on d-dupplication or on a Cloud storage Target with optimizations just so that we have the the savings there. 28:29.91 greybeards Retention Periods How often you're backing up things of that nature. Yeah yeah. 28:44.54 Renee Carlisle Um, Veritas even has a scalable appliance for our backup. So if you want to put it there and then as your data grows that would scale out so it's more how many copies do I need how long do I Keep keep those copies. How often am I going to do recoveries what kind of retention we can solve for all of that with Net backup and that's all autonomy automated so they don't have to think about it or worry about that. 29:01.64 kltownsend How. 29:08.47 kltownsend Yeah don't disagree with the concept and the initial thoughts until you get the surprise Aws bill like that that that is is ah on paper is great until you realize that I've oversubscribed. My what I thought my trent my ah, my egress charged budget would be and I'm not talking about egress from on hybrid. Whatever I'm talking about when I Initiali instantiate the workloads and I'm hitting the the data and I didn't design for it and that's when ah. And and and it sounds like you're giving us the parameters to do it is just a thought in which people architects really need to consider because you can easily outrun your target without you know when it's not a fixed resource. 29:59.49 Renee Carlisle Absolutely and you got to think about that anytime you're going into the cloud right? We make the storage of the backup as cheap as possible by being able to leverage. You know those. 30:01.90 greybeards Cloud And yeah. 30:10.43 Renee Carlisle Longer term cloud storage like glacier and those kind of things so we can use that to and deduplication and optimizations there so we can save as much as possible in storage. In fact, Veras even has a recovery vault so a saasbased storage that. 30:10.65 greybeards We know. 30:24.98 Renee Carlisle Makes it simpler if you just want to use our storage and has all kinds of ransomware detection and Anomaly detection and stuff so we make that as easy and and safe and optimize as possible for the customers. The cost. Biggest cost usually does come when you're recovering out of that So That's where you obviously have to design for that and think about that of how often will I do the recoveries where is that and what's that going to cost me. Absolutely. 30:39.12 greybeards Yes. 30:46.64 greybeards So somewhere back in this discussion. You mentioned that the the current version 2 of the solution. Ah you added things like data movers. Why why did you feel you had to add data movers to the solution. Maybe you could explain a little of that. 31:03.20 Renee Carlisle Yeah, there is There was not a Enterprise Grade Data Mover that we felt like our customers were comfortable with and wanted to use. Ah so yeah, so some of the data movers that are out there. 31:11.00 greybeards But and what does an Enterprise Grade Data Mover mean to you rene. 31:21.32 Renee Carlisle Like the rustics and some of the some of the third -party components didn't scale as much as our customers needed. We protect in our you know, very very large environments. We protect the largest environments and in the world we needed to make sure that it would scale. 31:25.96 greybeards Ah. 31:37.87 Renee Carlisle Um, a lot of our customers were even resistant to having to install manage upgrade a a separate component that wasn't native and included in the solution having that ability to scale up and scale down having deduplication having data encryption. 31:43.57 greybeards Right? I see. 31:56.38 Renee Carlisle Being able to tie into any that backup storage with all of our ransomware protection with detect an anomaly we didn't find any of that with going to a third -party component and our customers weren't comfortable. With that said, we really want this but we want to be able to know that we can scale. It perform have. 32:04.52 greybeards I say yeah. 32:12.66 greybeards So so so in a typical configuration multiple names spaces and that's our stuff would you have a data Mover per Namespace is that how you'd see this to be deployed or would be a separate namespace just for backup data moving services I I just trying to understand how this thing. 32:14.73 Renee Carlisle Protection have ransomware resiliency all that. 32:32.15 Renee Carlisle Sure that's so that's where the elasticity comes in right? So we have our Kubernetes operator that sits within typically best practices that it's a net backup namespace doesn't have to be but that's kind of what we recommend and then as we need to do data movement for either backup or recovery. 32:32.54 greybeards Works. 32:41.64 greybeards I see okay. 32:50.97 Renee Carlisle We will go out and look and say how many data movers. Do we need spin up to do that backup or recovery and typically typically we'll spin up one data Mover for the namespace and one data Mover for each of the persistent in volumes and those data Mover pods that we spin up are contained within our namespace. So we're not. 33:07.90 greybeards Um, others. Yeah. 33:10.13 Renee Carlisle Taking resources from the the backup namespace the the namespace that we're protecting and then as that data movement is done for that persistent volume for that namespace then that data Mover Pod will spin and spin down and go away but we also have threshold controls. So. 33:18.39 greybeards They can go away. Yeah yeah, yeah. 33:26.81 Renee Carlisle You know, depending on how many namespaces how many persistent volumes That's one thing we've learned in our our long history of data protection. You don't want data protection to just run Amok among amongst the platform you could take it over if you don't have constraint controls so we have threshold controls. 33:35.31 greybeards Right? right? right? right. 33:44.85 Renee Carlisle That says hey if you have you know so many resources that spinning up these data Mover pods might impact your operations you can set a threshold and limit how many data Mover pods will spin up and spin down to protect the infrastructure. 33:56.75 kltownsend Yeah, this is ah this is super critical I can't tell you how many times I've seen people make the transition from Cloud to read from private datas in the Cloud where these restraints was ah inherent to the environment. You go into an environment like Cloud where you don't have those restraints and you haven't calculated so a process that's completely not um, value add goes amok and you get us again. The surprise you know Insert Cloud Provider bill here because it wasn't by design. 34:27.78 Renee Carlisle Yeah, and these are those things when I say the reason why we wanted to build our own and not say go out and buy a startup or or use our past technology for this. 34:29.20 greybeards Yeah there. 34:43.52 Renee Carlisle Is because of being able to take all this history of how do you run extremely large Enterprise backup in different platforms. We can take all that history of these advanced capabilities and make sure we bring all of those to kubernetes as well in the same way so customers aren't having to learn anything new. There. They just expect that. Those kind of capabilities are going to come with our product and we wanted to make sure we delivered that. 35:04.86 greybeards Okay. 35:05.78 kltownsend Yeah, this is very complimentary to the talk track that I've had for the past probably year which has been the legacy quote unquote stuff isn't going anywhere and those resources might most. Difficult resource to change is my people and if I can't ah integrate my data protection strategy in the resources and processes that I have today then the chances for adoption are slim to none I'd like to use the example. Of the Dba who to this day refuses to not do a zero ah backup and you have to make the agent aware that the Dba is doing something that's probably not a modern ah activity or action. And kind of fake them out and say yes I did do a zero backup but it's just a snapshot. 36:00.74 Renee Carlisle Right? right? Absolutely I mean this is kubernetes isn't for the fan of hard in a lot of times. So the easier we can make it for customers to to be able to use known processes the the more successful we can be in the easier transition is. 36:01.38 greybeards Um. 36:13.11 greybeards Okay, we talked about the operator the operator I'll call it application I have data Mover containers I Guess um you mentioned client as well as backup server being native to the solution. Are the clients running in the namespaces or again it's just running in the backup name space. 36:35.40 Renee Carlisle That was just kind of ah ah, an initial offering just to kind of get to to know what we needed to do so we don't really use our client anymore. So once we did full native integration with just deploying a Kubernetes operator that model just kind of went away right? So the native integration we just. 36:40.42 greybeards I see. 36:49.73 greybeards Okay, so I mean backups used to have these like multi tier models right? multi you know 3 tier 2 tier kinds of backup solutions and and in the kubernetes you're saying that pretty much it's gone away. 36:54.48 Renee Carlisle Deploy a Kubernetes operator into the environment. 37:03.71 Renee Carlisle Um, we still have our media server and our primary server that can be multiple or they can be. You know all in 1 but then our Kubernetes operator we have one per Kubernetes cluster so we can scale. That communicates back to the primary server and we can use our media server to be able to provide the storage communicates with the operator data mover to move all the data so you can still scale those operations but. 37:32.20 greybeards Separately and. 37:34.54 Renee Carlisle That's even morphing and changing so in our latest release. We also just released our first containerized infrastructure. So netbackup itself is especially for our customers that are really heavily invested in cloud. They can now deploy nut backup in a containerized fashion so we are going through that conversion of the transition ourselves of taking a you know on-prem all in 1 kind of more monolithic application and moving that into. 37:54.73 greybeards Transition herself and. 38:09.49 Renee Carlisle A collection of services just deployed into a Kubernetes um type environment. 38:10.83 greybeards So so when you're saying that does that mean the primary server is moving into containers and the media server is moving into containers or oh. 38:18.63 Renee Carlisle Correct it is and we're continuing that evolution to make it more and more extensible so and more and more elastic. So as we have different services. Absolutely so eventually there is no. 38:29.31 greybeards And they become much more scalable because of all this right. 38:37.12 Renee Carlisle Such thing as a primary server or media servers anymore. It's just a collection of services and as we need more of 1 type of service that will scale up and that will scale down. That's all started in our our Dna years ago with our appliances started using containers within our appliances years ago. 38:39.31 greybeards Right? right. 38:48.75 greybeards Um I see I see. 38:56.80 Renee Carlisle Um, and so this is just kind of an evolution next step of that model of just getting more and more containerized to where there won't eventually even be a server anymore. It'll just be a bunch of services. 39:06.40 kltownsend Yeah, so ah I love the stories behind these transitions because I have ah ah love telling or asking the anti kubernetes stories which is what if I don't care anything about Kubernetes and now my isv is shipping. What used to be packaged software ah that I ran on a Vm as a container image. 39:31.65 greybeards So this does that customer start running containers in his his environment in order to run that package software. He's got to right? You don't. 39:37.23 kltownsend Yeah, do I need to know anything about Kubernetes to run my backup software. 39:42.11 Renee Carlisle No nope you don't so today and we're continuing to invest here. But today you could just go out to like the azure marketplace answer a couple of questions about what you need for your environment and. That's all obfuscated for you. You don't have to worry about Kubernetes. You don't have to know Kubernetes you just tell us what your goals are what you need and we will spend the infrastructure up for you band start running in the cloud. 40:10.94 greybeards So so in that case, you're running, you're running the containerized version of your infrastructure even though it's under the covers I like that I like that. 40:17.45 Renee Carlisle Correct correct and we're the first company to be able to provide that. Yeah. 40:22.22 kltownsend So what? So one of the things that as we're making this transition. Um, you can't see me I'm doing airports from vms to containers one of the things that people usually skip over is this inween space. Like we we're at the point that a lot of companies have a lot of cloud debt. We've built services on that I don't know if I would call them a monolithic application. Maybe they're microservices based they just I'm just not using containers as the building block for my. Environment. So as we're looking at a platform team or devop team that has to support everything from bare metal and this is get that this is somewhat of a softball from bare metal to vms to. Ah. Cloud native in the legacy sense to cloud native in the kubernetes sense. How how does net backup help me take a holistic view of my large enterprise that has just been cutting edge for the past twenty five years 41:34.40 Renee Carlisle Right? So there's 2 ways that we can do it so we can be. We can protect any of those applications. Any of those platforms all with the same tool sets same ui same basic framework. So. You don't need to learn anything new in order to be able to protect all of those infrastructures from 1 source truly one source all of those were built from the ground up. So so everything will be exactly the same user experience and then we also for our. 42:02.37 greybeards Um, yeah. 42:11.49 Renee Carlisle Infrastructure can provide not backup as an infrastructure in any of those components. So if you need to make a transition and you want to use you know you you want to bring your infrastructure on a virtual machine on your on-premises. You can do that. But if you want to put. 42:15.88 greybeards No, it's nice. 42:29.87 Renee Carlisle Net Backup into a containerized version for your Cloud Data Center You could do that as well. So we kind of both angles are covered as you're making that transition or adoption of new platforms. 42:44.92 greybeards Yeah, yeah I have to ask the question vanware is tanzoo and and that sort of stuff you guys do have support for tanzoo and your infrastructure. 42:55.20 Renee Carlisle We do. We can support any cnf cs cncf certified Kubernetes distribution and any Csi based storage so we tried to make it very agnostic. 42:58.92 greybeards Yeah, there you go. 43:04.98 greybeards Any any single side based storage. There's got to be twelve dozen of them out there now. 43:11.73 Renee Carlisle Yeah, by going with this. You know we wanted to make sure we kept it at the standards so by using Csi as a standard it allowed us to really be agnostic on our storage on our hco. We kind of the way we kind of negate this. 43:15.63 greybeards Um, right. 43:29.57 Renee Carlisle The way we kind of help with the storage because there are a lot of startups can't always make sure they're conformed to the standard. So for storage we kind of do a limited limit that to anybody that's part of our Veritas Technology Alliance partner platform which is every major storage vendor in the market. 43:34.24 greybeards Um. 43:42.45 greybeards Right? right? and. 43:49.39 Renee Carlisle That way if somebody does something that doesn't work quite like we expected. We can handle that in the back channels with support but it's all based on Csi compliance and using Csi drivers and don't have to worry about any of that and then again with the Kubernetes. 43:53.90 greybeards Right night. 44:05.14 Renee Carlisle We go all in on the Kubernetes Apis Cncf has already taken care of like standardizing that so we we can work with any cncf certified. We're still going through our own validation of all the major platforms because you never want to be cut off guard right? You want to do your own due diligence. So. 44:15.39 greybeards Right? right. 44:24.56 Renee Carlisle We continue to to validate all of our major platforms. But it's all see ah ah cncfs apis at the Kubernetes layer. So we haven't had any issues with any version we've tested so far. 44:31.23 greybeards Right. 44:35.00 kltownsend So Renee now that I'm looking at this at a operator level as opposed to a client level like I remember licensing net bot backup per client operator is not equal to a client. It may be equal to a client like in an interface but from a. 44:45.81 Renee Carlisle Her. 44:53.80 kltownsend Size of what I'm backing up operator operator can obviously be you know client can be huge but a operator is more likely a bigger purview as a whole cluster. How is the operator licensed as opposed to the client or is there a kind of single key for. Ah, from a licensing and licensing cost for the Kubernetes features. 45:16.10 Renee Carlisle Yeah, pretty much our majority of our base unless for the most part is all so switched over to frontend terabyte base protection or and or subscription based so you can purchase it as a subscription model which is where. 45:27.69 greybeards Costs. Yeah. 45:34.70 Renee Carlisle Most people want to go now and that's the kind of path forward where most people are trending to is using a subscription based model and so that's where we see probably most people purchasing this or you can do a now I'm. 45:50.40 greybeards Terabyte license. Yeah, right. 45:50.89 Renee Carlisle Losing my words here, you could do a term license rate with frontend terabyte as well. But we're seeing most people's appetite is more going towards subscription based so both options are available and that's not just for kubernetes so again because it's built in a net backup if you have. 46:02.93 greybeards Right? right here. 46:09.40 Renee Carlisle Your capacity licenses or your subscription licenses for net backup. You're licensed for Kubernetes if your environment grows and you need more capacity. You can add more capacity but it's not like you have to you know, buy a specific license to do this so it makes it really easy for our customers. 46:13.56 greybeards Ah, it's nice. 46:27.70 Renee Carlisle Um, that are on the early adopter stage to say we just want to test this out. We want to play with this. We want to look at it I don't have to worry about going out and you know adding new software or new capabilities or new licensing I already have it? Yeah, so just test it. Oh this is this is great works. Awesome now. Let's just extend it. 46:34.14 greybeards New Keys and stuff like that here. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 46:43.59 greybeards Okay, Keith any last questions for Renee before we close. 46:48.20 kltownsend Now This has been one of the better kubernetes ah conversations I got a tail your rate I look this. 46:52.53 greybeards Ah, you're you're hurting me, you're hurting me, you've got all right renee anything you'd like to say to our listening audience before we close. 46:52.66 Renee Carlisle Ah, we love to hear that that's our goal. 47:01.26 Renee Carlisle Um, just make sure you know that there there are solutions out there. We're we're here to help. We know it can be complicated. Our goal is to make it as easy as possible for our customers to use. 47:14.12 greybeards it's it's great well this has been great Renee thanks for being on our show today. That's it for now by Renee Bikey until next time. Thanks guys. 47:17.18 Renee Carlisle Thank you! It was great talking to you guys bye Ray bye Keith. 47:24.62 kltownsend By ray.